This is a special Community Update regarding the usage of Flock Cameras in Pulaski County, Missouri. Sheriff Stacy Ball sits down for a candid interview with Marv to talk about the controversial cameras and their future in the County.
This podcast is an O’Quinn Media production. Please visit http://www.flwpodcast.com to share your thoughts about this topic as well as any others you would like us to cover.
— Automated Transcript —
**Special Community Update**
Welcome to this special Not Lost in the Woods community update. Here at Oakwinn Media, we know there has been a lot of conversation, controversy, and even confusion surrounding Flock cameras here in Pulaski County. I mean, what are they? How do they work? How many are there? Where are they located? Who has access to the information they collect? And maybe most importantly, what does their future look like here in our community?
In this special episode of this podcast, Marv sits down with Pulaski County Sheriff Stacy Ball for a very candid conversation about Flock cameras. We talk about why the cameras were put in place, how they’ve been used, the concerns being raised by citizens, public threats that have been received surrounding the controversy, and then what the Sheriff says will happen next. You know, there are a lot of opinions out there, so rather than rely on rumors, social media posts, or hearsay, we’re going straight to the source and we think you should too. This is everything you need to know about Flock cameras and Pulaski County. Let’s get into it.
**Welcome and Introductions**
Marv: Welcome to this special edition on the Fort Not Lost in the Woods podcast site. We have with us Pulaski County Sheriff Stacy Ball, his Chief Deputy Rex Larson, and I thank you both for being here.
Stacy: Well, thank you for having us, Marv.
Marv: If I had the theme song to the old television show I Spy, I would be playing it right now, but I don’t because I didn’t want to jump through all the hoops it takes to not get busted for copyright infringement. But today we are addressing an issue that has really caught the headlines in the news about Flock cameras. Automated license plate reader systems, made by Flock Safety that track vehicle movements on public streets and in neighborhoods, and the public’s reaction to them. Did I get that pretty much right?
Stacy: Well, first off, was that a flock joke for the I Spy?
Marv: Yeah.
Stacy: Okay.
Marv: Oh, yeah, yes, it was.
**The Origin of Flock**
Marv: Where did the name Flock first off come from, Stacy?
Stacy: I have no idea on that. I don’t know where Flock, uh, how they how the company got that name or not. Maybe because it’s a flock of cameras or a bunch of cameras, like a flock of geese or something. I don’t know.
Marv: How essential are these in fighting crime in the streets?
Stacy: They have they have been a helpful tool for us the year that we’ve had them. Again, it all comes down to how you use it, uh, the moralities of it with with your deputies and officers that do use the system. Uh, so if it’s used properly, it is it is a useful tool.
**Public Concern and Data Storage**
Marv: So why is the public up in arms over this?
Stacy: Well, it all comes down to mass surveillance, uh, it comes down to where that information is stored, who has control of that information. Uh, Flock tells me and it’s that I have the that it’s my information to control. However, that information is kept at Flock headquarters in Atlanta, I believe. I it’s kept somewhere not other than my sheriff’s office.
So, anybody that wants access to that, I don’t know that they can get it or not. They’re supposed to get it through me if they want it, which I would have no reason to give that to them, uh, except for investigative purpose. However, uh, I can’t say 100% that, uh, I control that information.
**Decision to Implement Flock Cameras**
Marv: So who decided these Flock cameras were a good and essential idea?
Stacy: Flock Flock has been around for years. Uh, it didn’t just pop up. Uh, I was when I was working narcotics and, uh, and well, I’ve used them before. They were a useful tool. Uh, they helped us solve some good narcotics investigations. So when I became sheriff to get more eyes out on the road, uh, because at that time we had two, uh, deputies, days or nights. Uh, I’ve been able to push it up to sometimes to to three, sometimes four deputies depending on the overlap with my K9 units.
Uh, but researching and and and all the issues that Pulaski County’s had forever, it’s been drugs and thieves. Uh, so I decided that I wanted to pursue Flock to get on my Flock cameras on the outside of the county so that when people are coming in or if they cross the, uh, cross the line or east and westbound of I-44. Uh, and we had an investigation going on, then I could put that plate into Flock and and try and find its location so that we could investigate further.
**Number and Location of Cameras**
Marv: So how many of these Flock cameras are installed outside of the county or even in the county?
Stacy: The Flocks that I’m responsible for, there are five installed that are totally operational. There’s one, the one in Richland is not, uh, is not operational because they haven’t had I stopped it before, uh, it became fully operational, but right now there’s only five. And that’s East and westbound I-44, uh, the one in Dixon, the one in Crocker and the one in Lakeway.
**Public Damage and Threats**
Marv: Have you had any damages to any of your cameras from the public?
Stacy: I have not. I’ve had a lot of threats, uh, which led to my initial post that blew up like crazy. My post was, uh, telling the public how the Pulaski County Sheriff uses Flock, uh, what we, you know, our investigative purposes and the audits that we did that I do on the Flock, uh, system itself. And that caused more of an uproar, uh, but at the at the end of it, because people were posting that they contained, uh, silver and gold and uh, all these other precious metals, which they do not. It might have a little copper, I mean, from the wiring, but there’s nothing in there worth value.
So I was telling the public, don’t damage the Flock. Uh, and then that led up to, uh, a lot of a lot of feedback.
**Public Outcry and Response**
Marv: Which is why apparently you changed your mind over this because we’ve had politicians that have not necessarily, not all the time, but have not necessarily listened uh, to the public outcry. You have listened to the public outcry and I I just credit you for that.
Stacy: Well, it it all boils down to and I’ve I’ve said it quite a few times talking to folks is, uh, when it all comes down to it, I would rather have the trust of my citizens than a piece of technology. Technology can, you know, it can be it can be manipulated, it could be stolen, it could be broken into. Uh, but the trust of the public is worth more than that picture that I want of a back of a vehicle.
**Cameras are Not New**
Marv: Like you said earlier, these cameras are nothing new. I know you drive by these weigh stations, uh, for 18-wheelers up and down I-44 and overhead, you see these. And I’m sure they’re cameras. They’re probably taking pictures of these 18-wheelers, uh, that might try to dodge the weigh station because they’re overloaded. I don’t know whether that’s true or not. I’ve never been at a weigh station, nor have I, well, I actually drove through one accidentally one day in the rain, but that’s that’s that’s another story.
Uh, but somebody told me a long time ago, and we’re talking probably 30 years ago, that these green boxes that sit on the entrance way to I-44, I-70, I-40, wherever you go, they have cameras in them and the government’s been tracking us for a long time. Fact or fiction?
Stacy: I can neither confirm nor deny because I have no idea what those boxes are for. I’ve never, Rex, you I I don’t.
Rex: I’ve never seen the boxes. I guess I don’t know. If if I knew where they were, maybe. Now, there are different there are different things that different cameras can be used for. So cameras can be used for either capturing video or just strictly counting cars. Uh, you know, we all see all the time, uh, the uh, Transportation Department will come out and lay those little bands that go across that count cars as they go by, uh, things of that nature. Uh, but, you know, anytime that you walk into a store, they use cameras to count people, they use, you know, cameras to for the stoplights out here, to see how many cars are in the line to for the cam or for the uh, stoplights to go ahead and let people go through. So, I mean, there’s different reasons for different types of cameras. Even though it may look like a camera, it may not necessarily be a actual video camera to what most people would think.
**Contract Cancellation**
Marv: Did the county have to sign a contract, uh, with Flock?
Stacy: We did. It was, uh, and that’s the other thing, a lot of people they they they didn’t have they said they didn’t have a vote or, um, they weren’t informed or anything like that. But I took it to the County Commission. It was on the agenda. Uh, I asked for the cameras and I take responsibility for the commission. I asked the commission and they supported me in in the cameras. They understood that, uh, my, um, what I wanted to do with the cameras. I wanted more eyes and I wanted more eyes out on our roads, uh, because we just can’t be everywhere. We got I got 521 square miles to patrol with 55,000 citizens and a lot of people don’t we’re the largest class three county in the state of Missouri by population. Uh, so we’re the next largest county might be 39, 40-some thousand. I mean, I’m I’m sitting at 55,000, uh, residents that I got to take care of.
So, that was the methodology of getting the cameras out there. Um, and there was, you know, I knew the, you know, people were saying it was a Fourth Amendment violation. No court has ruled that it’s a Fourth Amendment violation. However, I I feel with the new, uh, the Supreme Court ruling on a geofencing on cell phones, um, they did bring up Flock about maybe, and and I can I can now that that ruling’s out and I understand why they made that ruling, uh, even though it is a geofencing is a great tool for us. Uh, we can’t use it no more without a search warrant, which is fine.
Uh, it it’s now I I I it it could start the Fourth Amendment. Even though it’s not been stated that by the courts, uh, I I think that it it could come to that. Uh, I consider myself a a we’re constitutional sheriffs. Uh, Rex, he’s a constitutional, he’s my constitutional officer as well is a chief. And the bottom line is we’re not here to even give the appearance of violating constitutional rights. We’re here to enforce the security of your liberties and constitutional rights.
Marv: Can you get out of this contract without any penalties?
Stacy: I’m already out of it. I I canceled the contract. I put my letter to the to the commissioners on Monday to cancel the contract. Uh, Flock has already put uninstall work orders in to get these cameras uninstalled. That’s why I didn’t want the public to damage them because I Flock could come back to me and say, hey, pay for these damages. I didn’t want that. So I’ve asked the public, please don’t damage the cameras. I uh, a gentleman offered to make some, uh, covers for the Flock cameras that I could just set over top of them. Uh, so with that, uh, it it’s it’s canceled. All my people to include myself are deactivated from Flock. You log on, you can’t even log on because you’re not active. Uh, so we we can’t use them. I told the, uh, public in my meeting that we I was going to deactivate everybody and get with Flock. And I’ve put those emails out that I sent to Flock. I put the, uh, the reason I was canceling out there. And I told them I would deactivate and which I did.
**Public Outcry and Misuse**
Marv: You might have already answered this, but the reason for the public’s outcry has been from what I have read, um, different departments either, uh, a cop, a sheriff, or somebody putting a license plate out on their girlfriend, their ex, and stuff like that and tracking them everywhere they went. Has that been the main focus behind the public outcry?
Stacy: Uh, misuse has been big, but it’s it’s mainly the, uh, your their they want their Fourth Amendment right protected. Uh, they want if information’s going to be secured, they want to know where that information is as well as I. So if anything we do with the Sheriff’s Office for our cases and stuff, it’s my information. We control it. Uh, if somebody wants it, they can foil it. So with Flock, with that information, that was that was a big, uh, big factor because I know I don’t control it. They say I do, but I can’t confirm.
**Bipartisan Effect**
Stacy: The other part of that too is, uh, (pause) lost my train of thought. The, uh, the the bipartisan effect that it’s had on the the county as a whole. Uh, I mean, it wasn’t just one side or the other. This I I’ve heard from from people from both sides. Republicans, Democrats, independent I mean it I and a lot of I don’t even know I can pretty much guess by talking to somebody what side you’re on. Uh, and, you know, I I talked to a few attorneys. Uh, I had a few people come in and tell me their Flock stories that came to my office and talk to me. I’ve showed citizens how I’ve used Flock and how I audit. Uh, so this was before before this argument became, uh, came out. But I’ve tried to be as transparent as possible on on the Flock. It’s been mentioned on my on my and my community forums, it’s been mentioned on Facebook posts. Uh, it’s no secret that I had Flock. I didn’t keep it a secret. Uh, but at the end of the day, it it was my decision for, uh, to get them. It was my decision to get out of the contract.
And I think that’s what’s best for for Pulaski County, what the other counties, what the other cities do. I don’t it’s it’s not my lane. I they they do what they want. They may have a different take of Flock. I I mean, I’ll I’ll support either way. The the misuse and mistrust with that, that, I mean, that does, uh, that does have a big effect. I mean, people don’t know what we’re doing. I can’t prove to people, um, what we’re what we’re doing. I can’t show unless they come in and see, I can’t show them, hey, this is this is like a few folks have have come in to to see.
**Trust in Law Enforcement**
Stacy: So there’s always going to be that mistrust. There’s all there’s been mistrust with law enforcement for many years now due to certain events. You got bad apples out there that are, uh, going to do the the wrong thing. And some have been prosecuted, some have been fired. I mean, they they get what they they get what they sow. Uh, I say that from my audits and what I’ve seen on Flock that we’ve done. Uh, I have not seen that misuse. I have not seen something going in there without an investigative an investigative reason. Most of our stuff was done with narcotics. Uh, we’ve we’ve found a couple runaways, one one runaway a couple times. We’ve tracked them all the way to Camdenton. Um, we’ve got a murderer off the road that came through our county followed by a chase in between Pulaski County, Highway Patrol and, um, and Phelps County. He wrecked his car and we were able to arrest him and, uh, sent him back to Oklahoma to face his his murder charges.
**Successes with Flock**
Stacy: And so, we’ve we’ve had success with them. And like I like I told the the people that were there, we were doing damn good police work before we had Flock. We’re going to continue to do damn good police work after Flock. So, uh, it it’s we’re going back to knuckle dragging on the ground with with to get our boots down there, get them dirty and and get back to investigating.
**Cell Phone Tracking**
Marv: Well, everybody who said, you know, they want to they want to find you. You know, that’s why these Flock cameras. If you have a cell phone, you can be found. All you have to do is ping that thing, if I’m not mistaken. And you can find somebody wherever they are if they have their cell phones on. And even sometimes if they don’t have their cell phones on.
Stacy: With an investigative reason, yes.
**ICE and Operation Relentless Pursuit (ORP)**
Marv: In previous discussions, I want to touch on this before we get out of here, with you, uh, we found out that ICE is paying the Sheriff’s departments and police departments around the country to help them with illegal aliens in the US. How’s that going and is it still going on?
Stacy: It’s still going. It it’s it’s we’ve been successful with it. Uh, it’s I mean, there’s nothing that’s been a big deal with it. Uh, when we make traffic stops or something like that, that’s that’s normally where we we’ll find them. Uh, so, uh, we’ve had we’ve had success with it. And the best thing about that is I don’t I don’t have to worry about ICE coming into our county and, uh, and doing things. The public doesn’t, uh, you know, we’ve seen all across the country. They don’t want ICE in the county or they don’t want ICE in their area. So, uh, if if ICE wants to pay us to do their job, to keep, you know, to let us enforce the the the the laws, then, uh, then that’s that’s where we’re at. So, they’re not in our county, which is good. They let me do, uh, do what I need to do. So I don’t have a bunch of ICE people running around kicking in doors, uh, upsetting the public. I can’t think of any doors we’ve had to kick in or anything like that to, uh, for this.
Stacy: The big thing with that along with that is, uh, is the ORP, Operation Relentless Pursuit, uh, that is doing way far more damage than, uh, to to the in a good way, getting convicted felons, getting felons that are fleeing from the law off the off the street, back into court and and pay their, you know, pay their dues. So, uh, this county, I’m going to tell you now, I will go off, uh, what I was told, uh, this morning talking to my ORP folks and, uh, I’m I’m not even afraid to say, I I think Pulaski County is leading the entire state in ORP stats. Uh, this area is just inundated with felons that are hiding right up in plain sight.
Stacy: Uh, it and they’ve been like that for years. If you come to my Sheriff’s Office, chief, you can I mean, we got almost 10,000 warrants sitting in our drawers that have been there for years. And deputies used to come in, they used to pick one or two out and then they’d go look for them. They get called away, then, you know, they had to bring the warrants back because they couldn’t find them or whatever. Uh, well, the the governor made a great a great decision with this ORP because it has been probably it it’s been very successful, uh, not only in Pulaski County, but across the state. And with the US Marshals, they they work with the US Marshals on certain things as well because they’re tracking fugitives. Uh, it’s just and with that comes the drugs, the guns, uh, the sex trafficking. We’ve they find out with the sex trafficking and things like that. So it all runs together and, uh, it it’s just it’s been a great tool for, uh, for Pulaski County and the state of Missouri as a whole.
**Final Thoughts on Transparency and Improvements**
Marv: Is there anything else you would like to add, uh, that I have not asked the question about Flock cameras that maybe you would like to pass along to the public?
Stacy: Uh, I mean, I I think I pretty much said what I said. I I I I made the best decision for Pulaski County. Uh, whether they they are for Flock or not for Flock, the the decision’s made. Uh, and at the end of the day, I I I feel very strongly that the trust of the people is worth more than the trust of a piece of technology.
Marv: A tip of the hat to you, Stacy Ball, because I think you’re doing an outstanding job, you and Rex, and, uh, the rest of your crew. When you don’t hear about the Sheriff’s department or the police department in the news, that means something good is happening and things are being taken care of.
Stacy: You know, it’s probably safe to say I’m probably the most hated sheriff in, uh, in the with the Missouri Sheriff’s Association right now. But I like I said, I I support the I support the sheriffs’ decisions in their in their use of Flock. Uh, I support them if they turn them away. Uh, I just think if they’re if they’re used correctly. And who knows, I mean, in a few years, they may come out with some technology that’s better. I mean, we’re always looking for ways to improve our Sheriff’s Office. We’ve made drastic improvements that is night and day from when we took over to now. Uh, we’ve got we’re getting a new CAD system, JMS, that’s our computer-aided dispatch. Uh, we’re getting a brand new dispatch, a state-of-the-art dispatch system for our dispatchers. Uh, we’ve gotten pyramids for the radio so we can talk across the county where before we couldn’t even if we stepped out of the vehicle, we couldn’t call back the dispatch.
Stacy: Uh, we’ve upgraded our weapons, our our handguns and rifles. Uh, I mean, there’s just been so much that we’ve been able to accomplish in, uh, in a year and a half. And it the Sheriff’s Office is night and day from the time we stepped in till you go in there now and it’s like what and that it’s good for the deputies because it’s giving them the tools and it’s giving them more, um, more technology to use in a good way as far as their report writing, as far as their their because right now, I got a deputy that comes in if it’s a long long body camera, that’s three hours he’s sitting there back and forth on a on a body camera. Watching clicking back and forth.
Marv: Rather than being out on the road and doing what he is.
Stacy: Then he’s still got to do the report. Uh, well, you know, with the new computer-aided dispatch system that we’re getting, I mean it it allows for it to download the the video camera into the report. The deputy verifies everything and he still got there’s still checks and balances, which is great. The deputy’s got to read a paragraph and then click that he’s he’s good with it, read the next paragraph, make any changes he’s got to make, uh, and then all the way through the report. So, uh, you just can’t click enter and it’s it’s finished. So there’s a lot of checks and balances, which is good. Uh, and I as law enforcement in general, we when we get a case, we are in a hurry to get it done. We miss things. Uh, we miss a piece of conversation. We we’re looking at video and and we’re tired and we want to and we skip over something. Well, this prevents a lot of that as well, uh, and let and allows the deputies to be better report writers as well to give the prosecutor the best case we can to make that prosecution.
**Outro**
Marv: Stacy Ball, Sheriff of Pulaski County, Rex Larson, his Chief Deputy, have been our guests on this special edition on the Fort Not Lost in the Woods podcast site, uh, produced and edited by Oakwinn Media. Gentlemen, keep up the good work and thanks for being here.
Stacy: Thank you, Marv. Thanks for having us.
Host Female: Thank you for listening to this special community update, a production of Oakwinn Media. If you have a topic you would like to hear covered in a special podcast or you have comments or questions about Flock camera usage in Pulaski County, go to FLWpodcast.com and send us an email. Let us know your thoughts. We’d love to hear them. Thank you for listening.